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Fantasy » alt.fan.pratchett » [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp.
[I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp. [message #290774] Mo, 26 Juni 2006 01:14
Karen  
I've received some kind mails over the past couple of weeks and I
appreciate them. Yes, its true I preferred the back door to the drama
departure but one afper made a good point - one of my reasons is well
overdue for raising here. I'm not sure if its of wider interest but it
is very relevant to several of us - I'm not unique by a long chalk.

So I'm here for a couple of days as I was asked to look at the FAQ
thread and I have to make a couple of announcements. Assume I've missed
anything from the past couple of weeks, I'm using a hefty killfile -
never felt the desire to do more than scorefile on afp in the past.
Anyone who tells me that every single post should be read by a FAQ
maintainer can bluntly stick their comments where the sun doesn't shine.

cc's of responses are a good idea if you want to be sure of an answer.


The issue I've not seen raised in the new style 'anything goes' afp is
"accessibility". It is relevant to a number of current afpers and will
be in the future. Its not as exciting as flagellating invertebrate
vampire threads and no one has to care a flying ferret for it but...

When afp consisted of a hundred plus posts per day I could, with good
technology, a lot of technical experience to deploy and a lot of help
from of my fellows in the early stages just about manage the group. But
it is a leisure activity and can only be done after the non leisure
activities are covered and it must justify its share of the "spoons".

I rarely have the spare capacity to actually post much - those
accusations of being 'absent' or 'not being committed enough' from some
of the more frequent posters because I don't post enough to meet their
requirements are hardly an encouragement to participate.

I had to be pretty selective about where I spent my posting and mail
effort. Often I had to follow afp in a degree of arrears - with the
help of the analytical scripts I developed to work with archives and the
help of other afpers who forwarded FAQ or service related stuff at
tricky times so that those posts at least I could keep up with in good
time. This was what made it actually possible to continue with them -
that and a very high degree of motivation which grew from my own
positive experience of afp, the group and its goodwill.

Over the past eighteen months/two years the volume has increased,
tagging has often been ignored or misused, formatting, trimming,
maintaining subject lines - it is simply an inaccessible "spoon"
guzzling nightmare most of the time and I'm *very far* from being the
only poster in this situation. There have been bad patches here but
they were patches - not a year or more of sustained aggravation and
noise veering from vampire to incomprehensible fluff fest and back
again. 'Anything goes' now.

I've had to read posters telling me I "shouldn't" maintain FAQs or
related services at all if I can't read every witless or contentless
post, every day in real time to ensure that I don't miss their little
pearl of a suggestion, buried fifteen layers deep in a thread full of
wrongly tagged, wrongly subject lined, badly formatted post. I've not
exactly had much backup when the flak was flying - just the same
handful of faces mostly. Enablement law doesn't apply to Usenet - we
depend utterly on simple netiquette and the following of basic
conventions and the good will of our fellow posters.

'don't read what you don't like' they say - it is hollow mockery - I
had to read the wretched posts, often paging through miles of quotation,
to know what the content actually *was* because it wasn't appropriately
tagged or formatted or subject labelled.

When 'they' make no apparent effort to tag or label or format or trim
their own vast swathes of 'stream of consciousness' posts, or even
worse - actively *undermine* it using their force of mass posting
volume - then it is sheer selfish hypocrisy and it truly does force
people out.

I've never raised this as a subject on group before because up until the
last year or so most posts here rendered such a mention unnecessary.

It was, then, still considered reasonable to ask new posters to follow
some basic conventions or to point out FAQs without being accused of
being a mind controlling elitist or having to assume they would take
automatictake offence at being welcomed. It was accessible.

People were, on balance, just a bit more considerate and thoughtful in
their posting and less focused on 'MeMeMe -
ItsAllAboutMe-WannaWannaLastWord' like some constipated toddler with a
blitzposting tantrum.

When someone as easy going and consistent in his wide variety of quality
contributions to afp as Daibhid Ceanaideach is finding it unreadable you
really have a problem. Truly he is the only exception I can recall to
the 'high posting volume=empty noise' equation.


--
Karen Karen [at] lspace.org
http://www.lspace.org

Discworld Convention 2006, August 18-21, http://www.dwcon.org
Re: [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp. [message #291119 ] Di, 27 Juni 2006 02:51
Shmoe  
"Karen" <Karen [at] lspace.org> wrote in message
news:gHavUAubjxnEFwmO [at] cableinet.co.uk...
>
> I've received some kind mails over the past couple of weeks and I
> appreciate them. Yes, its true I preferred the back door to the drama
> departure but one afper made a good point - one of my reasons is well
> overdue for raising here. I'm not sure if its of wider interest but it
> is very relevant to several of us - I'm not unique by a long chalk.
>
> So I'm here for a couple of days as I was asked to look at the FAQ
> thread and I have to make a couple of announcements. Assume I've missed
> anything from the past couple of weeks, I'm using a hefty killfile -
> never felt the desire to do more than scorefile on afp in the past.
> Anyone who tells me that every single post should be read by a FAQ
> maintainer can bluntly stick their comments where the sun doesn't shine.
>
> cc's of responses are a good idea if you want to be sure of an answer.
>
>
> The issue I've not seen raised in the new style 'anything goes' afp is
> "accessibility". It is relevant to a number of current afpers and will
> be in the future. Its not as exciting as flagellating invertebrate
> vampire threads and no one has to care a flying ferret for it but...
>
> When afp consisted of a hundred plus posts per day I could, with good
> technology, a lot of technical experience to deploy and a lot of help
> from of my fellows in the early stages just about manage the group. But
> it is a leisure activity and can only be done after the non leisure
> activities are covered and it must justify its share of the "spoons".
>
> I rarely have the spare capacity to actually post much - those
> accusations of being 'absent' or 'not being committed enough' from some
> of the more frequent posters because I don't post enough to meet their
> requirements are hardly an encouragement to participate.
>
> I had to be pretty selective about where I spent my posting and mail
> effort. Often I had to follow afp in a degree of arrears - with the
> help of the analytical scripts I developed to work with archives and the
> help of other afpers who forwarded FAQ or service related stuff at
> tricky times so that those posts at least I could keep up with in good
> time. This was what made it actually possible to continue with them -
> that and a very high degree of motivation which grew from my own
> positive experience of afp, the group and its goodwill.
>
> Over the past eighteen months/two years the volume has increased,
> tagging has often been ignored or misused, formatting, trimming,
> maintaining subject lines - it is simply an inaccessible "spoon"
> guzzling nightmare most of the time and I'm *very far* from being the
> only poster in this situation. There have been bad patches here but
> they were patches - not a year or more of sustained aggravation and
> noise veering from vampire to incomprehensible fluff fest and back
> again. 'Anything goes' now.
>
> I've had to read posters telling me I "shouldn't" maintain FAQs or
> related services at all if I can't read every witless or contentless
> post, every day in real time to ensure that I don't miss their little
> pearl of a suggestion, buried fifteen layers deep in a thread full of
> wrongly tagged, wrongly subject lined, badly formatted post. I've not
> exactly had much backup when the flak was flying - just the same
> handful of faces mostly. Enablement law doesn't apply to Usenet - we
> depend utterly on simple netiquette and the following of basic
> conventions and the good will of our fellow posters.
>
> 'don't read what you don't like' they say - it is hollow mockery - I
> had to read the wretched posts, often paging through miles of quotation,
> to know what the content actually *was* because it wasn't appropriately
> tagged or formatted or subject labelled.
>
> When 'they' make no apparent effort to tag or label or format or trim
> their own vast swathes of 'stream of consciousness' posts, or even
> worse - actively *undermine* it using their force of mass posting
> volume - then it is sheer selfish hypocrisy and it truly does force
> people out.
>
> I've never raised this as a subject on group before because up until the
> last year or so most posts here rendered such a mention unnecessary.
>
> It was, then, still considered reasonable to ask new posters to follow
> some basic conventions or to point out FAQs without being accused of
> being a mind controlling elitist or having to assume they would take
> automatictake offence at being welcomed. It was accessible.
>
> People were, on balance, just a bit more considerate and thoughtful in
> their posting and less focused on 'MeMeMe -
> ItsAllAboutMe-WannaWannaLastWord' like some constipated toddler with a
> blitzposting tantrum.
>
> When someone as easy going and consistent in his wide variety of quality
> contributions to afp as Daibhid Ceanaideach is finding it unreadable you
> really have a problem. Truly he is the only exception I can recall to
> the 'high posting volume=empty noise' equation.
>
>
> --
> Karen Karen [at] lspace.org
> http://www.lspace.org
>
> Discworld Convention 2006, August 18-21, http://www.dwcon.org

I confess, I am guilty of not always changing the subject when I post -
which isn't all that often, really. However, as a perennial lurker, I am to
the point where I rarely even *READ* the header anymore, because SO many
people aren't changing them.

Karen, I want to thank you for all of your work. I, for one, think that
somewhere down the line, the bulk of the posters here will realize how
important things like the FAQ's can really be - and they will miss your work
and dedication, just as I will.

Personally, I find it abominable that people (on THIS group, of all places),
have come across as being so mean-spirited as to actually offend and drive
off some of the orinal afp-ers, and those that have done so much work to
maintain some civility in a group that has always prided itself on such.

Thanks again, Karen - and I hope that if you do leave, you at least consider
coming back to lurk after an extended period away, to see if the group has
settled back down into something that resembles that which you worked so
hard at.

Shmoe

*also sent via email, in case she is no longer reading.
Re: [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp. [message #291125 ] Di, 27 Juni 2006 03:20
Stacie Hanes  
Shmoe wrote:

> Thanks again, Karen - and I hope that if you do leave, you at least
> consider coming back to lurk after an extended period away, to see
> if the group has settled back down into something that resembles
> that which you worked so hard at.

AOL, FWIW.

I had no idea you had to do all that. I'm a natural volunteer and organizer,
and it's usually thankless.

If I had known, I'd have done a few things differently. As it was, I just
learned from what I saw on the group. Now, I'm just plain in over my head
and see no way out.

Sorry about my part in all of this.
Re: [M].Suggested way forward (was [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp.) [message #291131 ] Di, 27 Juni 2006 03:59
Brenda  
Anastasia said:

<snip>

> If I had known, I'd have done a few things differently. As it was, I just
> learned from what I saw on the group.

That is probably true for quite a few people here.

> Now, I'm just plain in over my head and see no way out.

THERE IS *ALWAYS* A WAY OUT.

Um, hang on, that sounds a bit terminal. Let me try again.

There is *always* a way out, and it doesn't have to involve the guy with the
pointy stick, either.

> Sorry about my part in all of this.

That is probably true for quite a few people here, too.

As a relatively new kid on the block, who has not got the same emotional
investment in this group as most of you have and who may therefore be able
to be a little more objective than most about this whole mess, I have a
suggestion to make, not just to Anastasia but to everybody.

Before I make it, though, I just want to say that I continue to be puzzled
by all the fuss, which seems to me to be the biggest hurricane I've ever
seen in a single Usenet teacup. I suppose that's because I'm not really
involved. And, to be quite frank, I'm not even remotely sure I know what
it's all about - there is so much uninterpreted subtext flying around that
half the posts could mean almost anything.


Okay, here's the suggestion, and please understand that I'm not telling
anyone to do anything; I'm just *suggesting*:

(1) Everybody acknowledges (no, not in an afp post - just to themselves)
that a lot of people are very upset right now, and consequently it is very
likely that some things have been said in the heat of the moment that the
sayers would, on sober reflection, perhaps have rather left unsaid and
indeed unthought. So - if you've been hurt, reflect on the possibility that
whoever it was who hurt you is probably hurting too, and perhaps for the
same reason. To understand is to forgive.

(2) Everybody recognises that there is far too much traffic on afp, and that
the group would benefit significantly if we could (voluntarily) throttle
back a bit. Perhaps we should start *counting* the number of posts we make
each day. If we find ourselves hitting double figures in a single day (and
I'm sure I'm guilty of that), perhaps we should consider not posting again
until the following morning. I don't have the figures, but I reckon that if
we all did this, it could reduce the traffic to about half what it is now,
and we'd all have a fighting chance of actually being able to read what
people write, rather than just glance through it cursorily.

(3) Everybody agrees to treat this whole sorry episode as a salutary lesson
in oversensitivity.

(4) The FAQs are gone. Let them go, with grateful thanks to those who have
maintained them for so long. Someone could perhaps back them up somewhere
nice and safe (or several someones could). Then just forget them for a few
months. That would give us not only a cooling-off period, but also an
experiment in FAQless afp. And then in, say, September, when everybody has
calmed down a bit, we could re-open the discussion on whether we should try
to re-introduce the FAQs, perhaps posting them monthly rather than weekly,
or whatever it takes to de-politicise them.

(5) Everybody relaxes a little. Group hug all round, general amnesty,
whatever. The sheer intensity of this discussion has demonstrated how much
afpers care about afp, and in a way that's a good thing, but too many
people are falling out with each other, and that is /not/ good.

(6) Everybody thinks before posting, always.
(i) Is my OPF so amazingly funny that at least six people will almost
choke themselves and spray coffee all over their keyboard? No?
Then maybe I won't send it after all.
(ii) Could my reply accidentally hurt or offend someone that I don't
want to hurt or offend? Yes? Then maybe I won't send it after
all.
(iii) Am I /intending/ to hurt or offend someone? Yes? Then maybe
I won't send it after all.
(iv) Is this my eleventh post of the day? Yes? Then maybe I won't
send it after all.
(v) None of the above are intended to be construed as rules, or at
least not rules-to-beat-people-with, but more like guidelines
for controlling our innate desire to dash off a quick reply.
Not disciplinary, but self-disciplinary. Not cabal-control,
but self-control.

(7) Everybody relaxes even more, and occasionally takes an hour or so
away from afp to listen to a CD or visit a friend or write another
chapter of their latest novel.


Just a thought.


--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)
[M].Thanks for the effort [message #292103 ] Mi, 28 Juni 2006 09:02
Elder1  
On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:14:35 +1000, a collection of particles arranged in
such a way as to form a person that we would recognise as Karen,
influenced tha intarweb to propagate the following:


> I've received some kind mails over the past couple of weeks and I
> appreciate them. Yes, its true I preferred the back door to the drama
> departure but one afper made a good point - one of my reasons is well
> overdue for raising here. I'm not sure if its of wider interest but it
> is very relevant to several of us - I'm not unique by a long chalk.
>
[regretfully ---8<--- something that we _All_ should take note of]

Karen, I am a newbie. The first thing I did was to read the FAQ. I very
well understand how it feels to go to the effort, only to have your work
discounted and critised. Please continue as a member of afp, there are
people (lurkers included) who very much appreciate what you do.

We each of us look at the clay and think of what we could mould it to
be...
C:\>
--
"Where do want to go today?" "I'm thinking http://gentoo.org"
Re: [M].Suggested way forward (was [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp.) [message #292105 ] Mi, 28 Juni 2006 09:02
Elder1  
On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:59:23 +1000, a collection of particles arranged in
such a way as to form a person that we would recognise as Richard
Heathfield, influenced tha intarweb to propagate the following:

> Anastasia said:
>
> <snip>
>
>> If I had known, I'd have done a few things differently. As it was, I
>> just learned from what I saw on the group.
>
> That is probably true for quite a few people here.
>
>> Now, I'm just plain in over my head and see no way out.
>
> THERE IS *ALWAYS* A WAY OUT.
>
> Um, hang on, that sounds a bit terminal. Let me try again.
>
> There is *always* a way out, and it doesn't have to involve the guy with
> the pointy stick, either.
>
>> Sorry about my part in all of this.
>
> That is probably true for quite a few people here, too.
>
> As a relatively new kid on the block, who has not got the same emotional
> investment in this group as most of you have and who may therefore be
> able to be a little more objective than most about this whole mess, I
> have a suggestion to make, not just to Anastasia but to everybody.
>
> Before I make it, though, I just want to say that I continue to be
> puzzled by all the fuss, which seems to me to be the biggest hurricane
> I've ever seen in a single Usenet teacup. I suppose that's because I'm
> not really involved. And, to be quite frank, I'm not even remotely sure
> I know what it's all about - there is so much uninterpreted subtext
> flying around that half the posts could mean almost anything.
>
>
> Okay, here's the suggestion, and please understand that I'm not telling
> anyone to do anything; I'm just *suggesting*:
>
> (1) Everybody acknowledges (no, not in an afp post - just to themselves)
> that a lot of people are very upset right now, and consequently it is
> very likely that some things have been said in the heat of the moment
> that the sayers would, on sober reflection, perhaps have rather left
> unsaid and indeed unthought. So - if you've been hurt, reflect on the
> possibility that whoever it was who hurt you is probably hurting too,
> and perhaps for the same reason. To understand is to forgive.
>
> (2) Everybody recognises that there is far too much traffic on afp, and
> that the group would benefit significantly if we could (voluntarily)
> throttle back a bit. Perhaps we should start *counting* the number of
> posts we make each day. If we find ourselves hitting double figures in a
> single day (and I'm sure I'm guilty of that), perhaps we should consider
> not posting again until the following morning. I don't have the figures,
> but I reckon that if we all did this, it could reduce the traffic to
> about half what it is now, and we'd all have a fighting chance of
> actually being able to read what people write, rather than just glance
> through it cursorily.
>
> (3) Everybody agrees to treat this whole sorry episode as a salutary
> lesson in oversensitivity.
>
> (4) The FAQs are gone. Let them go, with grateful thanks to those who
> have maintained them for so long. Someone could perhaps back them up
> somewhere nice and safe (or several someones could). Then just forget
> them for a few months. That would give us not only a cooling-off period,
> but also an experiment in FAQless afp. And then in, say, September, when
> everybody has calmed down a bit, we could re-open the discussion on
> whether we should try to re-introduce the FAQs, perhaps posting them
> monthly rather than weekly, or whatever it takes to de-politicise them.
>
> (5) Everybody relaxes a little. Group hug all round, general amnesty,
> whatever. The sheer intensity of this discussion has demonstrated how
> much afpers care about afp, and in a way that's a good thing, but too
> many people are falling out with each other, and that is /not/ good.
>
> (6) Everybody thinks before posting, always.
> (i) Is my OPF so amazingly funny that at least six people will
> almost
> choke themselves and spray coffee all over their keyboard? No?
> Then maybe I won't send it after all.
> (ii) Could my reply accidentally hurt or offend someone that I
> don't
> want to hurt or offend? Yes? Then maybe I won't send it after
> all.
> (iii) Am I /intending/ to hurt or offend someone? Yes? Then maybe
> I won't send it after all.
> (iv) Is this my eleventh post of the day? Yes? Then maybe I won't
> send it after all.
> (v) None of the above are intended to be construed as rules, or at
> least not rules-to-beat-people-with, but more like guidelines
> for controlling our innate desire to dash off a quick reply.
> Not disciplinary, but self-disciplinary. Not cabal-control,
> but self-control.
>
> (7) Everybody relaxes even more, and occasionally takes an hour or so
> away from afp to listen to a CD or visit a friend or write another
> chapter of their latest novel.
>
>
> Just a thought.
>
>
What he said
C:\>
--
"Where do want to go today?" "I'm thinking http://gentoo.org"
Re: [M].Suggested way forward (was [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp.) [message #292395 ] Mi, 28 Juni 2006 14:53
Flesh-eating Dragon  
Richard Heathfield wrote:

> (2) Everybody recognises that there is far too much traffic on afp, and that
> the group would benefit significantly if we could (voluntarily) throttle
> back a bit. Perhaps we should start *counting* the number of posts we make
> each day.

[The following post may contain descriptions of fantasies]

What may be useful - but, I think, implausible - would be if a
programmer could write an app that somehow retrieves newsgroup
statistics every N minutes and displays them in a little box like
this:

+----------------------------------------------------------- ----+
| Posts by $myEmail in the last 24 hours: |
| $myPosts out of $allPosts ($myPostsAsPercentageOfAllPosts %). |
| |
| Most prolific threads: |
| 1. $prolificThreads[1] |
| 2. $prolificThreads[2] |
| 3. $prolificThreads[3] |
| |
| Statistics last updated $updateTime |
+----------------------------------------------------------- ----+

The window would have to be set to Always On Top, and you could make
the font colour change to bright red when $myPosts gets above a
certain user-customised value.

That is, you could ... *if* the idea were plausible in the first
place.

Adrian.
Re: [M].Suggested way forward (was [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp.) [message #292396 ] Mi, 28 Juni 2006 14:55
Flesh-eating Dragon  
Elder1 wrote:

>> Just a thought.
>
> What he said

Please remember to snip, i.e. don't quote huge chunks of text when you
don't need to. Thanks. :-)

Adrian.
Re: [M].Suggested way forward (was [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp.) [message #292414 ] Mi, 28 Juni 2006 16:02
Orjan Westin  
8'FED wrote:
> Richard Heathfield wrote:
>
>> (2) Everybody recognises that there is far too much traffic on afp,
>> and that the group would benefit significantly if we could
>> (voluntarily) throttle back a bit. Perhaps we should start
>> *counting* the number of posts we make each day.
>
> [The following post may contain descriptions of fantasies]
>
> What may be useful - but, I think, implausible - would be if a
> programmer could write an app that somehow retrieves newsgroup
> statistics every N minutes and displays them in a little box like
> this:
>
> +----------------------------------------------------------- ----+
>> Posts by $myEmail in the last 24 hours: |
>> $myPosts out of $allPosts ($myPostsAsPercentageOfAllPosts %). |
>> |
>> Most prolific threads: |
>> 1. $prolificThreads[1] |
>> 2. $prolificThreads[2] |
>> 3. $prolificThreads[3] |
>> |
>> Statistics last updated $updateTime |
> +----------------------------------------------------------- ----+
>
> The window would have to be set to Always On Top, and you could make
> the font colour change to bright red when $myPosts gets above a
> certain user-customised value.
>
> That is, you could ... *if* the idea were plausible in the first
> place.

It is plausible (FCVOP). GG offers an RSS feed of groups, so you could
just tap into that. You could probably make a Opera/MacOSX/Windows
Vista widget quite easily, using AJAX or something less hyped.

Even without that, it wouldn't be that hard to just connect to your news
server and download the headers regurlarly and do a bit of statistics.
If you have a limited buffer age (like 24 as suggested) the memory and
processing footprint would be quite small.

Orjan
--
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
Fiction, Thoughts and Software
http://www.cunobaros.com/
Re: [M].Suggested way forward (was [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp.) [message #292417 ] Mi, 28 Juni 2006 16:14
PeterH  
It all started on Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:25:10 +0930, when 8'FED wrote:

> Elder1 wrote:
>
>>> Just a thought.
>>
>> What he said
>
> Please remember to snip, i.e. don't quote huge chunks of text when you
> don't need to. Thanks. :-)

.... And make sure you don't cut out all the quoted authors from the top of
your post either.


...PeterH
Re: [M].Suggested way forward (was [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp.) [message #292433 ] Mi, 28 Juni 2006 17:22
Notifier Deamon  
Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)
Re: [M].Suggested way forward (was [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp.) [message #292512 ] Do, 29 Juni 2006 00:09
FiX01  
On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 18:28:15 +1000, Elder1
<root [at] localhost.localdomain> wrote:

>On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:59:23 +1000, a collection of particles arranged in
>such a way as to form a person that we would recognise as Richard
>Heathfield, influenced tha intarweb to propagate the following:
[snip]

>What he said

Err, two suggestions:

1. trimming is good
2. avoiding OLF also

FiX
Re: [M].Suggested way forward (was [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp.) [message #292513 ] Do, 29 Juni 2006 00:12
FiX01  
On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:23:49 +0930, "8'FED" <dragon [at] netyp.com.au>
wrote:

[...]
>What may be useful - but, I think, implausible - would be if a
>programmer could write an app that somehow retrieves newsgroup
>statistics every N minutes and displays them in a little box like
>this:
[...]

Arrgh, no, no way, no nono, killkillkill!!!

Seriously, no scoring on number of posts per poster, please: I've seen
this happen on quite a few froups, and then you have all the
compulsive posters trying to outdo the others... <shudders>

FiX
Re: [M].Suggested way forward (was [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp.) [message #292514 ] Do, 29 Juni 2006 00:14
Elder1  
On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:14:06 +1000, a collection of particles arranged in
such a way as to form a person that we would recognise as Peter Davies,
influenced tha intarweb to propagate the following:

> It all started on Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:25:10 +0930, when 8'FED wrote:
>
>> Elder1 wrote:
>>
>>>> Just a thought.
>>>
>>> What he said
>>
>> Please remember to snip, i.e. don't quote huge chunks of text when you
>> don't need to. Thanks. :-)
>
> ... And make sure you don't cut out all the quoted authors from the top
> of your post either.
>
>
> ..PeterH
Noted and noted.

The offender will be taken out and shot. kjnibuyjuthexds -- NO CARRIER.

C:\>
--
"Where do want to go today?" "I'm thinking http://gentoo.org"
Re: [M].Suggested way forward (was [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp.) [message #292526 ] Do, 29 Juni 2006 00:45
Flesh-eating Dragon  
FiX wrote:
> 8'FED wrote:
>
> [...]
>>What may be useful - but, I think, implausible - would be if a
>>programmer could write an app that somehow retrieves newsgroup
>>statistics every N minutes and displays them in a little box like
>>this:
> [...]
>
> Arrgh, no, no way, no nono, killkillkill!!!
>
> Seriously, no scoring on number of posts per poster, please: I've seen
> this happen on quite a few froups, and then you have all the
> compulsive posters trying to outdo the others... <shudders>

But people who download the app would use it to make sure they /don't/
post too many posts. Don't you /trust/ people? :-)

Anyway, one could _not_ conveniently use it to compare how much
different people post, because all it would display is how much _you_
post [1], and what that is as a percentage of _all_ posts. It would
_never_ display a comparison of different individuals, nor show any
kind of ranking.

So, yes, one could in theory use it to ensure that one posts more than
X% of all traffic to the group, but one could not use it to ensure
that one ranks at #1 [2].

Adrian.

[1] Well, the person with the email address listed in settings. But
that would ordinarily be the owner of the copy. My copy would
ordinarily show how much _I_ post and your copy would ordinarily
show how much _you_ post.

[2] Unless of course you post more than 50% of all traffic or
something, because mathematically you are then bound to be the
most prolific poster.
Re: [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp. [message #292534 ] Do, 29 Juni 2006 01:15
MEG  
"Shmoe" <packersrock [at] earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:5i%ng.1878$NP4.941 [at] newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> Karen, I want to thank you for all of your work. I, for one, think that
> somewhere down the line, the bulk of the posters here will realize how
> important things like the FAQ's can really be - and they will miss your
> work
> and dedication, just as I will.

I just realised that I'd been avoiding supporting the FAQs and their
maintainers for fear of being accused by certain people of *ganging up* and
being part of a clique.

Well, fuckem. I never yet got appointed to the mysterious, elusive
Cabal/clique that is cited and probably never will because I use OE. So they
would be hollow accusations. I approve of the FAQs. I appreciate the hard
work that people have put into them, not only in creating them but in
maintaining their relevence, accepting criticism (that's NOT supposed to be
a negative word in the strictest sense), and evolving them. I agree that
they exist because we wanted to have a central point of information for
people interested in discussion of varying subjects with fellow
Discworld/Pratchett fans.

Social conventions are learned by interraction. In a text only medium, it's
harder and slower to interract. FAQs assist and speed up this process.

- MEG
Re: [M].Suggested way forward (was [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp.) [message #292549 ] Do, 29 Juni 2006 01:50
Arthur Hagen  
FiX <FiX01 [at] club.lemonde.fr> wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 18:28:15 +1000, Elder1
> <root [at] localhost.localdomain> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:59:23 +1000, a collection of particles
>> arranged in such a way as to form a person that we would recognise
>> as Richard Heathfield, influenced tha intarweb to propagate the
>> following:
> [snip]
>
>> What he said
>
> Err, two suggestions:
>
> 1. trimming is good
> 2. avoiding OLF also

I agree

--
*Art
Re: [M].Suggested way forward (was [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp.) [message #292562 ] Do, 29 Juni 2006 02:41
Eric Jarvis  
FiX FiX01 [at] club.lemonde.fr wrote in
<fiv5a2puak0us92k5kl776o1ftinnh7p80 [at] 4ax.com>:
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:23:49 +0930, "8'FED" <dragon [at] netyp.com.au>
> wrote:
>
> [...]
> >What may be useful - but, I think, implausible - would be if a
> >programmer could write an app that somehow retrieves newsgroup
> >statistics every N minutes and displays them in a little box like
> >this:
> [...]
>
> Arrgh, no, no way, no nono, killkillkill!!!
>

<passes FiX the killkillkillfilefilefile>

> Seriously, no scoring on number of posts per poster, please: I've seen
> this happen on quite a few froups, and then you have all the
> compulsive posters trying to outdo the others... <shudders>
>

What might be useful is if the script showed the most useful atat,
percentage of quoted text. One newsgroup I frequent regularly has a
monthly posting of selected stats and it is remarkable how closely the top
posters for highest proportion of quoted text match those in my killfile,
and those with the highest proportion of new text are precisely the people
whose posts I read first.

--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Re: [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp. [message #292564 ] Do, 29 Juni 2006 03:26
Gid Holyoake  
In article <VOydnaJIuqUJkD7ZRVnyiQ [at] bt.com>, MEG generously decided to
share with us..

Snippetry..

> Social conventions are learned by interraction. In a text only medium, it's
> harder and slower to interract. FAQs assist and speed up this process.

And what precisely does a Discworld Convention chairman know about
social interaction eh?..

I dunno.. just 'cause these people organise events for over 700 people
in a hotel they seem to think they know what they're on about..

Gid

P.S. is the boy coming to the Con and bringing his guitar?.. we could
arrange for it to be misplaced.. :-)
Re: [I] Social conventions (was Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp.) [message #292609 ] Do, 29 Juni 2006 07:52
MEG  
"Gid Holyoake" <abuse [at] brynamman.org.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.1f0d387312a17afa989773 [at] news.btinternet.com...
> In article <VOydnaJIuqUJkD7ZRVnyiQ [at] bt.com>, MEG generously decided to
> share with us..
>
> Snippetry..
>
>> Social conventions are learned by interraction. In a text only medium,
>> it's
>> harder and slower to interract. FAQs assist and speed up this process.
>
> And what precisely does a Discworld Convention chairman know about
> social interaction eh?..

Leave me a lone. I'm busy. <g>

> P.S. is the boy coming to the Con and bringing his guitar?.. we could
> arrange for it to be misplaced.. :-)

The Boy will be holidaying in Newquay I believe. That doesn't stop me
bringing the guitar I guess. It's tempting.
- MEG
Re: [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp. [message #292613 ] Do, 29 Juni 2006 08:08
Beth Winter  
MEG wrote:
>
> I just realised that I'd been avoiding supporting the FAQs and their
> maintainers for fear of being accused by certain people of *ganging up* and
> being part of a clique.
>
> Well, fuckem. I never yet got appointed to the mysterious, elusive
> Cabal/clique that is cited and probably never will because I use OE. So they
> would be hollow accusations. I approve of the FAQs. I appreciate the hard
> work that people have put into them, not only in creating them but in
> maintaining their relevence, accepting criticism (that's NOT supposed to be
> a negative word in the strictest sense), and evolving them. I agree that
> they exist because we wanted to have a central point of information for
> people interested in discussion of varying subjects with fellow
> Discworld/Pratchett fans.
>
> Social conventions are learned by interraction. In a text only medium, it's
> harder and slower to interract. FAQs assist and speed up this process.

Thank you for putting it so concisely. I think this might be the place
to put in that while the new and yes, terribly busy AFP has me putting
threads on Ignore left, right, and centre, which leads to my severely
reduced participation these days, the concept of abolishing the FAQs or
even complaining about them rather boggles the mind. The first thing
that still comes to mind about AFP is precisely this "Cabal" structure
of help and support through FAQs, welcome e-mails and instructions that
allowed me the confidence to delve into Usenet years ago. I've always
put it up as an example on other groups. To all the maintainers of it
over the years, thank you.

--
Beth Winter
Extenuation Collective <http://www.extenuation.net/>
"To absent friends, lost loves, old gods and the season of mists."
-- Neil Gaiman
Re: [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp. [message #292636 ] Do, 29 Juni 2006 11:37
esmi  
on 29/06/2006 00:15 MEG said the following:

<snip>
> I never yet got appointed to the mysterious, elusive
> Cabal/clique that is cited and probably never will because I use OE.

But you're one of The Great Con Supremos! Surely you'd never have the
time to stoop to something as lowly as a Cabal? ;-)

esmi
Re: [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp. [message #292805 ] Do, 29 Juni 2006 23:38
MEG  
"esmi" <esmi [at] lspace.org> wrote in message news:e808ai$19lj$1 [at] mud.stack.nl...
> on 29/06/2006 00:15 MEG said the following:
>
> <snip>
>> I never yet got appointed to the mysterious, elusive Cabal/clique that is
>> cited and probably never will because I use OE.
>
> But you're one of The Great Con Supremos! Surely you'd never have the time
> to stoop to something as lowly as a Cabal? ;-)

I'm stunned into silence.
Nearly... bear with me...

In My View, helping out with a convention is nowhere near as dedicated as
creating and maintaining a FAQ for this (or any) newsgroup. Cons last two
years. A FAQ is for life, not just for now. a FAQ *is* a life all of its
own. Like progeny. It needs to be nurtured, educated, allowed to learn from
its mistakes, to grow and flourish... the allegory's just gone stale or I've
run out of hyperbole, either way, sorry.

With cons, you have a team all working together. With a FAQ, it's lonely,
I'm sure.
- MEG
Re: [M].Suggested way forward (was [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp.) [message #294326 ] Mo, 03 Juli 2006 23:30
Karl  
In article <fiv5a2puak0us92k5kl776o1ftinnh7p80 [at] 4ax.com>,
FiX <FiX01 [at] club.lemonde.fr> wrote:
> Arrgh, no, no way, no nono, killkillkill!!! Seriously, no scoring on
> number of posts per poster, please: I've seen this happen on quite a few
> froups, and then you have all the compulsive posters trying to outdo the
> others... <shudders>

Oh Gods indeed... Last time there were regular posting stats on AFP (that
I recall [1]) *exactly* that happened, people posting hundreds of posts to
get to #1 slot.
_Please_, nobody do a regular stats list, for there the Shadows lie.

[1] I've been away a while
Re: [M].Suggested way forward (was [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp.) [message #294335 ] Mo, 03 Juli 2006 23:46
FiX01  
On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 21:30:31 +0000 (GMT), Karl <karl [at] kincaid.org.uk>
wrote:

>In article <fiv5a2puak0us92k5kl776o1ftinnh7p80 [at] 4ax.com>,
> FiX <FiX01 [at] club.lemonde.fr> wrote:
>> Arrgh, no, no way, no nono, killkillkill!!! Seriously, no scoring on
>> number of posts per poster, please: I've seen this happen on quite a few
>> froups, and then you have all the compulsive posters trying to outdo the
>> others... <shudders>
>
>Oh Gods indeed... Last time there were regular posting stats on AFP (that
>I recall [1]) *exactly* that happened, people posting hundreds of posts to
>get to #1 slot.
>_Please_, nobody do a regular stats list, for there the Shadows lie.

>[1] I've been away a while

Kinky!!! Nice to see you back :-)

FiX
Re: [M].Suggested way forward (was [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp.) [message #294339 ] Mo, 03 Juli 2006 23:43
MEG  
"Karl" <karl [at] kincaid.org.uk> wrote in message
news:4e40d448bfkarl [at] kincaid.org.uk...
> [1] I've been away a while

Welcome (back) Karl.
It's warm, sweaty, fluffy and snarky by degrees and totally afpish.
We're cusping. Please join us.

- MEG
Re: [M].Suggested way forward (was [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp.) [message #294341 ] Mo, 03 Juli 2006 23:51
MEG  
"FiX" <FiX01 [at] club.lemonde.fr> wrote in message
news:j14ja29ubno0shphphq6t8iq90sc7v0092 [at] 4ax.com...
> On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 21:30:31 +0000 (GMT), Karl <karl [at] kincaid.org.uk>
> wrote:
>
>>[1] I've been away a while
>
> Kinky!!! Nice to see you back :-)
>
<headslap>
That'll teach me to browse whilst tired. Welcome back, Kinkaid.

- MEG
Re: [M].Suggested way forward (was {I}.Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp.) [message #294356 ] Di, 04 Juli 2006 00:22
raltbos  
Karl <karl [at] kincaid.org.uk> wrote:

> In article <fiv5a2puak0us92k5kl776o1ftinnh7p80 [at] 4ax.com>,
> FiX <FiX01 [at] club.lemonde.fr> wrote:
> > Arrgh, no, no way, no nono, killkillkill!!! Seriously, no scoring on
> > number of posts per poster, please: I've seen this happen on quite a few
> > froups, and then you have all the compulsive posters trying to outdo the
> > others... <shudders>
>
> Oh Gods indeed... Last time there were regular posting stats on AFP (that
> I recall [1]) *exactly* that happened, people posting hundreds of posts to
> get to #1 slot.
> _Please_, nobody do a regular stats list, for there the Shadows lie.
>
> [1] I've been away a while

Good lord. Is it something in the air that lures the oldbies back in?
Anyway, welcome back, the lot of you.

Richard
Re: [M] Suggested way forward (was [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp.) [message #294403 ] Di, 04 Juli 2006 13:19
sphira9343  
Karl wrote:

> _Please_, nobody do a regular stats list, for there the Shadows lie.
>
> [1] I've been away a while

Nice to see you (and your cool hair) back round here, Kincaid :-)

CCA
Re: [M] Suggested way forward (was [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp.) [message #294406 ] Di, 04 Juli 2006 13:40
Lister  
On 4 Jul 2006 04:19:07 -0700, "CCA" <sphira9343 [at] aol.com> wrote:

>Karl wrote:
>
>> _Please_, nobody do a regular stats list, for there the Shadows lie.
>>
>> [1] I've been away a while
>
>Nice to see you (and your cool hair) back round here, Kincaid :-)
>
>CCA


Aha, kinky kaid, hello again.
Re: [M].Suggested way forward (was [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp.) [message #294418 ] Di, 04 Juli 2006 16:37
the Tinfoil Hat of Re  
On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 09:50:03 +1000, a collection of particles arranged in
such a way as to form a person that we would recognise as Arthur Hagen,
influenced tha intarweb to propagate the following:

> FiX <FiX01 [at] club.lemonde.fr> wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 18:28:15 +1000, Elder1 <root [at] localhost.localdomain>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:59:23 +1000, a collection of particles arranged
>>> in such a way as to form a person that we would recognise as Richard
>>> Heathfield, influenced tha intarweb to propagate the following:
>> [snip]
>>
>>> What he said
>>
>> Err, two suggestions:
>>
>> 1. trimming is good
>> 2. avoiding OLF also
>
> I agree
>
for(0;1;)
{
printf("I WILL proof-read before posting.\n");
}

C:\>
--
The (bs) artist formerly known as Elder1

"Where do want to go today?" "I'm thinking http://gentoo.org"
Re: [M].Suggested way forward (was [I].Thanks for the fish -Accesibility issues and afp.) [message #294422 ] Di, 04 Juli 2006 16:57
Philippa Cowderoy  
On Wed, 5 Jul 2006, the Tinfoil Hat of Reason wrote:

> for(0;1;)
> {
> printf("I WILL proof-read before posting.\n");
> }
>

Am I the only one here who pronounces "for(;;)" as "forever"?

--
flippa [at] flippac.org

'In Ankh-Morpork even the shit have a street to itself...
Truly this is a land of opportunity.' - Detritus, Men at Arms
Re: [M].Suggested way forward (was [I].Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp.) [message #294424 ] Di, 04 Juli 2006 16:59
Paul Harman  
"Philippa Cowderoy" <flippa [at] flippac.org> wrote in message
news:Pine.WNT.4.61.0607041556550.584 [at] SLINKY...
> Am I the only one here who pronounces "for(;;)" as "forever"?


Nope.

Paul
Re: [I] Silly C code was {M} Suggested way forward [message #294513 ] Di, 04 Juli 2006 22:51
raltbos  
Philippa Cowderoy <flippa [at] flippac.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 5 Jul 2006, the Tinfoil Hat of Reason wrote:
>
> > for(0;1;)
> > {
> > printf("I WILL proof-read before posting.\n");
> > }
>
> Am I the only one here who pronounces "for(;;)" as "forever"?

Not by a long shot, although (for being a keyword, not a function
identifier) I'd space it "for (;;)". One trick, often cited but
mercifully rarely encountered in the wild, is to "#define ever (;;)".
Tinfoil's version made me boggle somewhat. It's not that it doesn't work
that way; but _why_ be so inconsistent?

Richard
Re: [M].Suggested way forward [message #294538 ] Di, 04 Juli 2006 23:37
aqusenet  
Karl <karl [at] kincaid.org.uk> wrote:

> In article <fiv5a2puak0us92k5kl776o1ftinnh7p80 [at] 4ax.com>,
> FiX <FiX01 [at] club.lemonde.fr> wrote:
> > Arrgh, no, no way, no nono, killkillkill!!! Seriously, no scoring on
> > number of posts per poster, please: I've seen this happen on quite a few
> > froups, and then you have all the compulsive posters trying to outdo the
> > others... <shudders>
>
> Oh Gods indeed... Last time there were regular posting stats on AFP (that
> I recall [1]) *exactly* that happened, people posting hundreds of posts to
> get to #1 slot.
> _Please_, nobody do a regular stats list, for there the Shadows lie.

I used to for my own purposes. Then I discovered that I couldn't get the
wood to turn it into a proper world domination scheme and went back to
training the dolphins.

Did I say dolphins? I meant nothing at all. I am not at all training
swimming creatures for evil porpoises... er... purposes...

rats...

....not them either...





I'm going to need a new masterplan now. Next on the list is... Hmm...
I'm not sure you can get that many carrots at once. Ah well, ebay here
we come.

--
'q
Re: [M].Suggested way forward [message #294550 ] Mi, 05 Juli 2006 00:12
Random C  
Aquarion wrote:

> I'm going to need a new masterplan now. Next on the list is... Hmm...
> I'm not sure you can get that many carrots at once. Ah well, ebay here
> we come.
>

*chews absently on a carrot stick*
Oh for goodness sakes, you need to give your henchpersons *some*
indication of what you're about, you know.
--
Random_c
Drive-by postings a speciality
Re: [I] Silly C code was {M} Suggested way forward [message #294599 ] Mi, 05 Juli 2006 05:47
Arthur Hagen  
Richard Bos <raltbos [at] xs4all.nl> wrote:
> Philippa Cowderoy <flippa [at] flippac.org> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 5 Jul 2006, the Tinfoil Hat of Reason wrote:
>>
>>> for(0;1;)
>>> {
>>> printf("I WILL proof-read before posting.\n");
>>> }
>>
>> Am I the only one here who pronounces "for(;;)" as "forever"?
>
> Not by a long shot, although (for being a keyword, not a function
> identifier) I'd space it "for (;;)". One trick, often cited but
> mercifully rarely encountered in the wild, is to "#define ever (;;)".
> Tinfoil's version made me boggle somewhat. It's not that it doesn't
> work that way; but _why_ be so inconsistent?

Perhaps a certain compiler sees absolute values at an earlier pass and
produces better code? I've done weirder things, like adding superfluous
(but not detectable as such by the compiler) statements before a loop to
ensure that a block got aligned, which made it fit in cache, which speeded
up the execution.
Or using a variable an extra time or two outside a loop to ensure that /it/
gets assigned a register inside the loop instead of a different variable.
Compilers are stupid, especially when they try to be smart.

Regards,
--
*Art
Re: [I] Silly C code was {M} Suggested way forward [message #294819 ] Do, 06 Juli 2006 04:53
Flesh-eating Dragon  
Richard Bos wrote:
> Philippa Cowderoy wrote:

>> Am I the only one here who pronounces "for(;;)" as "forever"?
>
> Not by a long shot, although (for being a keyword, not a function
> identifier) I'd space it "for (;;)". One trick, often cited but
> mercifully rarely encountered in the wild, is to "#define ever (;;)".
> Tinfoil's version made me boggle somewhat. It's not that it doesn't work
> that way; but _why_ be so inconsistent?

Personally, I'm far more accustomed to while(TRUE).

Which has, of course, innumerable variants, along the lines of
"while (PoliticiansAreEvil)" and so on.

Adrian.
Re: [M].Suggested way forward (was Thanks for the fish - Accesibility issues and afp.) [message #294824 ] Do, 06 Juli 2006 05:19
Flesh-eating Dragon  
Karl wrote:
> FiX wrote:
>> Arrgh, no, no way, no nono, killkillkill!!! Seriously, no scoring on
>> number of posts per poster, please: I've seen this happen on quite a few
>> froups, and then you have all the compulsive posters trying to outdo the
>> others... <shudders>
>
> Oh Gods indeed... Last time there were regular posting stats on AFP (that
> I recall [1]) *exactly* that happened, people posting hundreds of posts to
> get to #1 slot.
> _Please_, nobody do a regular stats list, for there the Shadows lie.

Please note that nobody suggested a regular stats list, or any other
kind of utility that would enable easy comparison of how many articles
are posted by different individuals. So in the context of the thread,
this branch is a bit of a non-sequitur.

Not that non-sequitura are a new departure for afp, of course.

Adrian.
[F] Returning old farts (was Re: Suggested way forward) [message #294841 ] Do, 06 Juli 2006 08:53
Suzi  
In article <44a995e3.9540500 [at] news.xs4all.nl>, Richard Bos
raltbos [at] xs4all.nl wibbled...

[Snip]
> Good lord. Is it something in the air that lures the oldbies back in?

Yes, I think it is... I think it's called "a Convention" or something
<g>

Suzi
Vorheriges Thema:[I] Cult Films
Nächstes Thema:[ANNOUNCE][R] Terry's UK September/October tour
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